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misssakura
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« on: November 20, 2004, 12:05:33 »

Suggested by Gray, a thread which researches the foundations of Yoko Kanno's songs. Notice any similarities in her works to other artists? Of course its possible other people go from her work, so make sure the originals aren't written after hers! (Haven't found one yet like this). This is not an opportunity to outright insult Yoko, but merely see her inspiration and source material.

Here are a few of mine

- Overload by the sugarbabes turns into Cosmic Dare
- Hyperballad by Bjork turns into Where does this ocean go
- Bolero by Ravel turns into Illusion

I know there are more but I really can't remember them right now. Anyway, your turn!
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grey
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2004, 13:30:52 »

*Brigitte Fontaine's "Comme a la Radio" becomes the Seatbelts' "Black Coffee"
*DJ Food's "Let the Good Shine" becomes Tulivu-Donna Cumberbatch's "Mushroom Hunting"
*Harry Connick Jr.'s "Blue Light, Red Light (Someone's There)" becomes Masayoshi Furukawa's "You Make Me Cool"
*[under some disupute, lol] - Hooverphonic's "Battersea" becomes Gabriela Robin's "Saibaa Baado" (Cyberbird)

I have some more written down in my notebook at school, and my algebra teacher has a couple of titles I need to get from him - songs that are very similar to "Want It All Back" and "Some Other Time"...//so that's all I have for now - as well as "Hyper-Ballad"/"Where Does This Ocean Go?" & "Overload"/"COSMIC DARE (Pretty With a Pistol)" - previously mentioned

edit: I forgot to mention Aleksandr Porfiryevich Borodin's "Stranger in Paradise" becomes Maaya Sakamoto (feat. Steve Conte)'s "THE GARDEN OF EVERYTHING ~Denki Roketto ni Kimi wo Tsurete~" ....but she actually gives credit in that case.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2004, 13:44:28 by Grey Archangel » Logged
EarltheSneak
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2004, 14:21:08 »

This is the list I've compiled of tracks by Kanno that are clearly patterned after pre-existing pieces. In most of these, it's a fairly loose (but detectable) inspiration; but in some, it veers more towards "rip-off". You all can track these pieces down and see what you think.  Smiley
Anyway, these are just the ones I've noticed through my own listening, I'm sure there are others (although I hope not). Man, I wonder if we'll find out that literally every track Kanno's written is based on something else...



Nobunaga's Ambition Zenkokuban/Sangokushi:
When Seasons Change (Kisetsu no kawaru koro) --> Gabriel Fauré “Pavane”


Ishin no arashi:
Triumphant Return (Gaisen) --> Peter Tchaikovsky “Violin Concerto in D, 1st Mov’t”


Daikoukaijidai II:
Catalina --> Billy Joel “Allentown”


Napple Tale:
A Stroll --> Patrick Doyle “Willoughby” (from Sense and Sensibility)
13 Ice Cream --> Camille Saint-Saens “Carnival of the Animals: Finale”
Dreams In A Pie --> The Beatles “Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds”


Macross Plus:
Go Ri A Te --> Ryuichi Sakamoto “Thousand Knives”


Vision of Escaflowne:
Dance of Curse --> Carl Orff “Carmina Burana: O Fortuna”
Revenge --> Maurice Ravel “Bolero”
Blaze --> J.S. Bach “St. Matthew Passion: Chorus ‘Come ye daughters, share my mourning’”


Escaflowne Movie:
Sóra’s Folktale --> Björk “All Is Full Of Love (Single Version)”


Cowboy Bebop:
Bad Dog, No Biscuit --> Tom Waits “New Orleans Instrumental”
Pot City --> Angelo Badalamenti “Dub Driving” (from Lost Highway)
Too Good, Too Bad --> Herbie Hancock “Chameleon”
You Make Me Cool --> Harry Connick Jr. “Blue Light, Red Light (No One’s There)”
Words That We Couldn’t Say --> Sting “La Belle Dame Sans Regrets”
Go Go, Cactus Man --> Ennio Morricone “Main Theme” (from The Good, The Bad & The Ugly)
*(Debatable, since this is clearly an intentional Morricone homage, but still, this is the theme she based it on)

Call Me, Call Me --> The Verve “Bittersweet Symphony”
Black Coffee --> Brigitte Fontaine “Comme a la Radio”
On the Run --> Pink Floyd “On the Run”   *Probably also intentional, if she used the same title
Papa Plastic --> The Beatles “Come Together”
Mushroom Hunting --> DJ Food “Let the Good Shine”


Cowboy Bebop Knockin’ On Heaven’s Door:
Ask DNA --> Beck “Devil’s Haircut”
Pushing the Sky --> Lunatic Calm “Leave You Far Behind”
Yo Pumpkin Head --> Lou Bega “Mambo No.5”
Powder --> Steve Reich “The Desert Music: 1st Mov’t”
Cosmic Dare (Pretty with a Pistol) --> The Sugababes “Overload”


Brain Powered:
Ark --> Giuseppe Giordani “Caro Mio Ben”
Crossing --> Vangelis “End Title” (from Blade Runner)
Prism --> Alan Silvestri “Pseudopod” (from The Abyss)
True Love --> Passengers “Always Forever Now”
Dear My Mother --> Rogers & Hart “Isn’t It Romantic?”


Turn-A Gundam:
Pitiful Soshié --> Simon & Garfunkel “Scarborough Fair”
Innocent Lie --> Eric Serra “Fatal Weakness” (from Goldeneye)


Arjuna:
Resonance of the Earth --> Russ Landau “Ancient Voices” (from Survivor)
Sanctuary --> (an 80’s Jpop song I heard once with the exact same antecedent melody phrase, but I can't remember the title or artist! Maybe someone knows)


Ghost in the Shell - Stand Alone Complex:
Where Does This Ocean Go? --> Björk “Hyperballad”
Fish ~ Silent Cruise --> Craig Armstrong “Ruthless Gravity”
Be Human --> Spiritualized “Ladies and Gentlemen, We Are Floating In Space”
Good By My Master --> Craig Armstrong “Escape” (from Plunkett & Macleane)


Wolf’s Rain:
Heaven’s Not Enough --> Craig Armstrong “Wake Up In New York”
Face On --> Craig Armstrong “Finding Beauty”


Record of Lodoss War - Heroic Knight Legend:
Sea of Miracles --> Adiemus “Adiemus”


Mizu no Onna:
Searching for the Shadow of Umbrella --> Maurice Ravel “String Quartet in F: 2nd Mov’t”


Maaya Sakamoto:
Alkaloid --> The Beatles “Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite”
Noon Snow -->Frou Frou “Maddening Shroud”
03 --> Frou Frou “Old Piano”





edit: I forgot to mention Aleksandr Porfiryevich Borodin's "Stranger in Paradise" becomes Maaya Sakamoto (feat. Steve Conte)'s "THE GARDEN OF EVERYTHING ~Denki Roketto ni Kimi wo Tsurete~" ....but she actually gives credit in that case.


Not sure what Stranger in Paradise is... The Borodin piece Kanno incorporates into Garden of Everything is the "Dance of the Tartars" from Prince Igor. This definitely doesn't count though because, like you said, Borodin is properly credited for the composition. More importantly, I think Dance of the Tartars was used as a theme in the show (Rahxephon) by the composer Ichiko Hashimoto, so I'm sure Kanno was actually requested by the producers to use the Borodin piece in her own song.
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roxfan
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2004, 14:45:20 »


edit: I forgot to mention Aleksandr Porfiryevich Borodin's "Stranger in Paradise" becomes Maaya Sakamoto (feat. Steve Conte)'s "THE GARDEN OF EVERYTHING ~Denki Roketto ni Kimi wo Tsurete~" ....but she actually gives credit in that case.


Not sure what Stranger in Paradise is... The Borodin piece Kanno incorporates into Garden of Everything is the "Dance of the Tartars" from Prince Igor. This definitely doesn't count though because, like you said, Borodin is properly credited for the composition. More importantly, I think Dance of the Tartars was used as a theme in the show (Rahxephon) by the composer Ichiko Hashimoto, so I'm sure Kanno was actually requested by the producers to use the Borodin piece in her own song.

Not "Dance of the Tartars" (I guess you meant so write "tatars," still wrong anyway), but "Polovetsian Dances".
And "Stranger in Paradise" is a song from 1953 Broadway musical "Kismet" which uses the same melody but English lyrics. Was sung by different people countless times, including Sarah Brightman. And yes, it was used in the RahXephon TV series, Quon had often sung it.
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ykDB
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2004, 14:59:28 »

Cowboy Bebop Movie:
Scott Matthew on "No Reply" - Skunk Anansie's "Secretly"

Nobunaga no Yabou: Sengoku Gunyuuden - "Toki no Shirabe", sung by Akino Arai. It sounds an awfully lot like a Chinese classical song, "Long De Chuan Ren" (Descendents of the Dragon) usually known to be sung by Li Jian Fu. Despite the difference in singing, the remake fits pretty well with the Nobunagan times.

"Aoi Hitomi" from Tenkuu no Escaflowne was also based upon Simon & Garfunkel's “Scarborough Fair”.

Vision of Escaflowne:
Revenge --> Maurice Ravel “Bolero”


To Ravel's Bolero, I would say one of Escaflowne's musical themes is based on Bolero. In the two takes of "The Vision of Escaflowne", "Revenge" (like you mentioned), and I think one or two more...
« Last Edit: November 20, 2004, 15:20:00 by TenAJs » Logged
EarltheSneak
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2004, 22:18:17 »

Not "Dance of the Tartars" (I guess you meant so write "tatars," still wrong anyway), but "Polovetsian Dances".
And "Stranger in Paradise" is a song from 1953 Broadway musical "Kismet" which uses the same melody but English lyrics. Was sung by different people countless times, including Sarah Brightman. And yes, it was used in the RahXephon TV series, Quon had often sung it.

D'oh, what a brainfart. I don't know why I thought Dance of the Tartars instead of Polovtsian Dances. (Tartars isn't a misspelling though, it's a variant as commonly used as Tatars).


"Aoi Hitomi" from Tenkuu no Escaflowne was also based upon Simon & Garfunkel's “Scarborough Fair”.

? Pitiful Soshie from Gundam certainly was, but Hitomi sounds quite different. It has a generalized English folksong sound, but it only sounds as much like Scarborough Fair to me as any 2 modal folksongs sound alike.
 


To Ravel's Bolero, I would say one of Escaflowne's musical themes is based on Bolero. In the two takes of "The Vision of Escaflowne", "Revenge" (like you mentioned), and I think one or two more...

 
Well, it's not really the theme that's based on Bolero. The Escaflowne theme is written in the style of medieval plainchant, whereas Ravel based his melody in Bolero on Spanish folksong, and it's a much more active, chromatic subject. While Kanno uses the distinctive Bolero rhythm in the "Vision of Escaflowne" cues (as hundreds of film composers have done since Ravel wrote it), it's Revenge specifically where the style of orchestration -a sustained crescendo through additive homophony- is a very clear reference to Bolero as a whole, and not just one component of it.
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misssakura
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2004, 00:31:31 »

Stranger in paradise became VERY famous, it was sung by Tony Bennett in like..the 1950s or something, at least thats the one I grew up with and as far as i'm aware, the one that was a big hit.

I knew that you make me cool sounded familiar....and it bothered me cus I couldn't figure out where i'd heard it Cry

Darnit there are more songs but I can't think...

edit: i'm pretty sure green bird is taken directly from one of Schubert's songs.....but can't remember which one. I know my music teacher pointed it out.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2004, 00:35:11 by misssakura » Logged
ykDB
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2004, 02:20:32 »

Well, it's not really the theme that's based on Bolero. The Escaflowne theme is written in the style of medieval plainchant, whereas Ravel based his melody in Bolero on Spanish folksong, and it's a much more active, chromatic subject. While Kanno uses the distinctive Bolero rhythm in the "Vision of Escaflowne" cues (as hundreds of film composers have done since Ravel wrote it), it's Revenge specifically where the style of orchestration -a sustained crescendo through additive homophony- is a very clear reference to Bolero as a whole, and not just one component of it.

:O I see...
Nice to some musically knowledgable people chatting here ^^
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roger343
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2004, 04:53:40 »

There is Yoko Kanno's Ave Maria which in my opinion is based on Schubert's one. There is also her Hallelujah that sounds a little bit familiar to Händel.
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misssakura
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2004, 04:58:56 »

In the liner notes, it says

Ave Maria - Schubert (arr. Kanno)

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PerdeskiCloyn
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2004, 09:17:18 »

The whole point of CB soundtrack I guess was paying tribute to occidental music in general, so I guess it's no surprise that so many of these songs resemble other artists' works.

misssakura, are these liner notes from the booklet? Kanno's Ave Maria is definetely different from Schubert's, even though they sound similar. Then again, all Ave Marias have similar structure, as seems to be tha case with certain music styles (blues, mambo, etc).
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misssakura
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2004, 09:22:39 »

Hah! You're right its not in the liner, it just says so on my ID tag....

However i'm pretty sure that I read somewhere how it was a famous ave maria just re-arranged by Kanno.....maybe Inglis said it? Oh now i'm confused. Sad
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EarltheSneak
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2004, 09:56:52 »

Kanno's Ave Maria is an original piece (well, unless we find out she stole it from somewhere, but it's not an arrangement). It's definitely not based on Schubert's, the two pieces are completely different. In the Cowboy Bebop "After" book, Kanno mentions that Watanabe was going to use an existing aria for the opera house scene, but Kanno volunteered to write an original cue instead.

I haven't heard any specific song Greenbird is riffing on, but it does have a very Schubertian flavor.


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misssakura
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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2004, 10:14:37 »

Sometimes my brain seems to invent things that i've read, its a very confusing place, like information overload....I can't distinguish between fact and fiction a lot of the time Sad
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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2004, 07:02:07 »

I think that Bad Dog No Buscuit (from Cowboy Bebop) sounds a lot like One Step Beyond by Madness, but that's okay because I like that song. Smiley

Tammy
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tlsmith1963
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2004, 07:06:11 »

Kanno's Ave Maria is an original piece (well, unless we find out she stole it from somewhere, but it's not an arrangement). It's definitely not based on Schubert's, the two pieces are completely different. In the Cowboy Bebop "After" book, Kanno mentions that Watanabe was going to use an existing aria for the opera house scene, but Kanno volunteered to write an original cue instead.

I haven't heard any specific song Greenbird is riffing on, but it does have a very Schubertian flavor.

You were able to translate the interviews in The After?  The one thing that disappoints me about the CB artbooks (including the new Toshihiro Kawamoto one) is that the interviews are only in Japanese!  I want to read those interviews, but my knowledge of Japanese is so limited that even Japanese dictionaries aren't working for me. Sad

Tammy



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EarltheSneak
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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2004, 14:03:45 »


You were able to translate the interviews in The After?  The one thing that disappoints me about the CB artbooks (including the new Toshihiro Kawamoto one) is that the interviews are only in Japanese!  I want to read those interviews, but my knowledge of Japanese is so limited that even Japanese dictionaries aren't working for me. Sad

Tammy



Well I can read most of them, but I haven't actually typed up an organized translation. I suppose I could, I just never thought of submitting translations. Especially since my Japanese is most definitely not fluent. What is this new Kawamoto CB artbook? Does it have another interview with Kanno?
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mike_s_6
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2004, 18:53:22 »

Man, I wonder if we'll find out that literally every track Kanno's written is based on something else...



Nobunaga's Ambition Zenkokuban/Sangokushi:
When Seasons Change (Kisetsu no kawaru koro) --> Gabriel Fauré “Pavane”




Gabriel Faure has sang for Kanno is a CM. Smiley (don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet...)


I don't think that Kanno takes from musicians all the time, I hope what you said is a hyperbole. I was thinking  that all musicians take from past experiences, just that some bad inspirations almost copy the original. ><


Call Me call me reminds me of Goo Goo Doll's 'Iris'. Smiley
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EarltheSneak
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2004, 20:18:55 »


Gabriel Faure has sang for Kanno is a CM. Smiley (don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet...)



Really? He died in 1924. Nice to see the man's still getting work.   Wink
I think what you're referring to is Kanno's arrangement of Faure's Cantique de Jean Racine for a commercial several years ago.
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2004, 23:40:46 »

Wolf's rain, Cloud 9 -----> Une héroîne by Laurent Voulzy
It's exactly the same   :Smiley
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mike_s_6
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« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2004, 17:58:35 »



Really? He died in 1924. Nice to see the man's still getting work.   Wink
I think what you're referring to is Kanno's arrangement of Faure's Cantique de Jean Racine for a commercial several years ago.


He did? Haha, I can't read Japanese. Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2004, 16:15:11 »

Wow, I'm amazed at the sheer amount of "borrowing" Kanno has done, but not surprised. I've noticed some instances myself. I noticed the Beatles - "Mr. Kite"/"Alkaloid" similarity, but I think "Alkaloid" sounds like the Beatles throughout the song, so it's probably more of a tribute than a ripoff. Here's a couple more:

Maaya Sakamoto - "Migi Hoppe no Nikibi"/Madonna - "Material Girl"

It's such a simple melody it could be coincidence, but with Kanno's track record, I wouldn't be surprised if she was inspired by the Madonna song.

Cowboy Bebop - "Want It All Back"/Imperial Drag - "Zodiac Sign"

This is probably the most blatant case of plagiarism I've ever heard. It's a shame too, because Imperial Drag was a sorely underrated band and didn't deserve to be ripped off, not to mention the original "Zodiac Sign" is a much better song than "Want It All Back" IMO. Track it down if you can.

These are more vague: My brother's girlfriend listened to "Noel's Piano" from 23 ji no Ongaku/The Other Side of Midnight OST and said it sounded just like an Erik Satie song she'd heard. She didn't know which one, does anyone out there know?

And "Next Time" from Song to Fly reminds me of Tom Waits, but I admit I'm not very familiar with Waits. Maybe it's just the singer's voice. If anyone is familiar with Waits, I'd like to know if I'm right about that or not.
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« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2004, 16:23:43 »

I almost forgot! This one is killing me! "Two Things" from 23 ji no Ongaku sounds just like part of "Clarke Bolland" by Moca. However, the Moca song is more recent. However (again), the allmusic guide credits "Clarke Bolland" to a "McFarland", unlike the rest of the songs on the album, so I assume it's a cover/reworking of an older song. Now according to the AMG, the most prominent McFarland in jazz is one Gary McFarland who was known for fusing jazz with classical. I don't know if it's a song of his because the AMG doesn't list any song called "Clarke Bolland" to him, although he's obscure enough that they might not have every single song he's recorded in their database. And to confuse things further, there was a famous big band called "The Clarke-Bolland Big Band", which makes me wonder if Moca's song was a reworking of one of their songs. In any case, I'm sure Kanno borrowed from some obscure song in "Two Things" but I don't really know what it is. Or else Kanno was plagiarized by someone else due to some form of cosmic justice  Grin
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« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2004, 19:10:34 »


Maaya Sakamoto - "Migi Hoppe no Nikibi"/Madonna - "Material Girl"

Gosh, I forgot about that. I guess that one doesn't bug me so much because the riff is so simple, and the song is otherwise different.


These are more vague: My brother's girlfriend listened to "Noel's Piano" from 23 ji no Ongaku/The Other Side of Midnight OST and said it sounded just like an Erik Satie song she'd heard. She didn't know which one, does anyone out there know?

Hmm, I've heard just about everything Satie ever wrote, and while Noel's Piano certainly sounds Satie-ish, it's in the realm of legitimate inspiration rather than being a rip of a particular piece. Unless it's stolen from something else...I seem to have gotten so cynical now, I can't trust any song by Kanno to actually be by her.


And "Next Time" from Song to Fly reminds me of Tom Waits, but I admit I'm not very familiar with Waits. Maybe it's just the singer's voice. If anyone is familiar with Waits, I'd like to know if I'm right about that or not.

It definitely a take on Waits' style, but if it's based on a particular song of his, I haven't heard it. I've only heard 3 Waits albums though, so I don't speak with authority. I *want* to give Kanno the benefit of the doubt, but hmm...she took the idea for Bad Dog, No Biscuit from his "New Orleans Instrumental" on the Rain Dogs album, so it wouldn't be the first time.

Can't help with the "Two Things" query. I listened to the Moca track and, yup, that sure sounds like Two Things. It would be nice to think that it's Kanno getting ripped off this time, but though I've never heard it, I have a feeling the Moca track is indeed a cover of a Gary McFarland tune. Now I gotta find an mp3 of that Imperial Drag song. Sigh.
Why do you do this, Kanno...
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« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2004, 19:15:27 »


Cowboy Bebop - "Want It All Back"/Imperial Drag - "Zodiac Sign"

This is probably the most blatant case of plagiarism I've ever heard. It's a shame too, because Imperial Drag was a sorely underrated band and didn't deserve to be ripped off, not to mention the original "Zodiac Sign" is a much better song than "Want It All Back" IMO. Track it down if you can.

oh my god, I just asked my algebra teacher today and he said it was Imperial Drag. And I swear I was just about to post this. Oh, and I so agree - man, she needs to give credit...
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misssakura
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« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2004, 19:20:44 »

Yoko herself confesses that shes a huge fan of Satie and Debussy.....

Uhm, I was listening to Pulse the other day and my ex told me that it sounded just like something from a film he'd seen, I know thats not helpful but hes working on it.

Still, I think Kanno is merely a face for this big production team, the thing is shes so 'private' that it is now an extreme - people don't know really who she is and to be honest......in a way, although this isn't really meant to be an insult to Kanno, I'd rather listen to somebody like Yuki Kajiura, because her music all has her personal trademark, she doesn't write as much as Yoko, and shes very candid about how she started, the equipment she uses etc. I just find her music in general to be a lot more personal.

but maybe thats why I also love the Gabriela Robin stuff....nearly all my favourite pieces are Gabriela Robin ones....because they do have style.....they are personal, and they are interesting in more than technicalities.
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« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2004, 10:00:10 »

oh my god, I just asked my algebra teacher today and he said it was Imperial Drag. And I swear I was just about to post this. Oh, and I so agree - man, she needs to give credit...

You mentioned a song "Some Other Time" was based on earlier, did you ever find out what that was? That's one of my favorite Kanno songs, I really don't want to find out it's ripped straight off someone else....  Sad




Still, I think Kanno is merely a face for this big production team, the thing is shes so 'private' that it is now an extreme - people don't know really who she is and to be honest......in a way, although this isn't really meant to be an insult to Kanno, I'd rather listen to somebody like Yuki Kajiura, because her music all has her personal trademark, she doesn't write as much as Yoko, and shes very candid about how she started, the equipment she uses etc. I just find her music in general to be a lot more personal.

I don't understand what you mean? Big production team? Kanno may be stealing these ideas, but there's nobody else doing her work for her.
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misssakura
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« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2004, 11:25:06 »

You seem to have a problem with every single thing I say earl, why are you trying to pick a fight all the time? I don't know if you've ever worked in music, but it is a fact that there are VERY few artists who create music from start to finish without any assistance, ideas etc. Yoko Kanno is NOT one of them, it is not speculation, it is fact. She does have a HUGE team of people working around her, throwing ideas around and so on, I can tell you that. Yes she is the main driving force but she does not do every single thing by herself.

Also, I never ever once said Yoko was stealing ideas. You have said that, which I find rather rude. So why do you have a problem with me stating a fact that she does work with an incredible amount of people, from synthesizer manipulators, other producers, conductors, professional musicians and singers, lyricists....everybody will input to her ideas and shape it? Thats not personal opinion of her 'merit' its a fact. Heck, I think its a great thing for people to throw ideas around, thats how the best songs come about.

But she is the face of this team. Again a fact. You'll only hear about Yoko, I mean come on, In the American version of Escaflowne, they left off Hajime Mizoguchi's credits completely! Doesn't that show you what a figurehead Yoko has become, that she eclipses somebody who worked on half of the project?

I just think it isn't a weak thing for people to mention that they aren't a superhero, that they aren't superhuman, I know for a fact that Yoko is a great musician, but I know shes not the only producer working on projects, I know that she is not a lyricist or a synth manipulator (who play huge roles in the sound of music, they are the people who make all the sounds unique, give a special edge).....

Okay so yeah i've said my piece. I hope you can see where i'm coming from now, instead of accusing me of stating that "Yoko has everybody doing all the work and does absolutely none herself".  There are a LOT of people doing a substantial amount of work WITH her.
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EarltheSneak
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« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2004, 12:59:26 »

You seem to have a problem with every single thing I say earl, why are you trying to pick a fight all the time?

I don't have a problem with you, I was simply asking you to clarify something you said which seemed strange to me, not picking a fight, and I didn't expect it to come off aggressively. I asked because you seem to be singling Kanno out for things which are standard procedure in the industry.


I don't know if you've ever worked in music, but it is a fact that there are VERY few artists who create music from start to finish without any assistance, ideas etc.

I work as a composer and used to work at a recording studio, so yes, I'm aware of how the business operates. It's very true that composers for media accept input from a variety of sources, on the order of temp tracks or directives from producers as to what style to use, but this is not the same thing as accepting assistance in the actual process of composing, and there's certainly nothing unusual about how Kanno works in this regard.


Yoko Kanno is NOT one of them, it is not speculation, it is fact. She does have a HUGE team of people working around her, throwing ideas around and so on, I can tell you that. Yes she is the main driving force but she does not do every single thing by herself.

This is the part I find confusing and wanted clarification on. She has no huger a team of people working around her than any other composer in the industry is required to have if they want their music to be performed and recorded. But to suggest that this means she's only partly responsible for the music she composes is inaccurate (disregarding for the moment whether she got the idea for it from another source). Unless you know something about her that isn't known publically, and if you do please share it, I don't know why you think she has a team around her who are contributing to her music in a degree beyond their standardized roles, or in what way she's being disingenuous. How is she different from, for example, Yuki Kajiura, whom you mentioned before?


Also, I never ever once said Yoko was stealing ideas. You have said that, which I find rather rude. So why do you have a problem with me stating a fact that she does work with an incredible amount of people, from synthesizer manipulators, other producers, conductors, professional musicians and singers, lyricists....everybody will input to her ideas and shape it? Thats not personal opinion of her 'merit' its a fact. Heck, I think its a great thing for people to throw ideas around, thats how the best songs come about.

It's true that there are many opportunities for the work of a media composer to have details altered or to undergo slight reshaping, but again, how is Kanno different here from Kajiura or anyone else?



But she is the face of this team. Again a fact. You'll only hear about Yoko, I mean come on, In the American version of Escaflowne, they left off Hajime Mizoguchi's credits completely! Doesn't that show you what a figurehead Yoko has become, that she eclipses somebody who worked on half of the project?


Um, you know that had nothing to do with Kanno, right? That would be an oversight on the part of Fox, and I don't think she was in on the conference call when they decided Mizoguchi's name wasn't worth reproducing. Kanno herself was only given an "additional music by" credit, because Fox replaced so much of it. Meanwhile, in the Escaflowne Memorial Collection, there's a neat interview with Kanno and Mizoguchi where they discuss how they shared the responsibility of writing the music and comment on each other's cues. I've never once seen Kanno take credit for the work of another composer she collaborated with, and I'm always impressed with how unegotistical and unpreposessing she is in interviews, which are impossibly rare qualities in the music industry. Now the borrowing from pop songs thing is something else, and I honestly don't know what's going through her head and whether its unconscious or not, but I don't think it's fair to say Kanno is stealing credit from people in her own circle whom she's working with.

I just think it isn't a weak thing for people to mention that they aren't a superhero, that they aren't superhuman, I know for a fact that Yoko is a great musician, but I know shes not the only producer working on projects, I know that she is not a lyricist or a synth manipulator (who play huge roles in the sound of music, they are the people who make all the sounds unique, give a special edge).....

Sure, they play a role, but only as much of a role as they play for every composer in the industry, and it's definitely not accurate to say that the synth manipulators who create custom sounds for composers are entitled to some kind of compositional credit. These are two drastically different disciplines. I've seen Kanno praise Keishi Urata (her synth designer) for creating just the sounds she needed twice in interviews, which is twice more than most Hollywood composers would ever credit anyone besides themselves.

Okay so yeah i've said my piece. I hope you can see where i'm coming from now, instead of accusing me of stating that "Yoko has everybody doing all the work and does absolutely none herself".  There are a LOT of people doing a substantial amount of work WITH her.

I would say that, like every composer working for film, there's a small number of people who have a marginal creative input into the final outcome of Kanno's music, but not compositionally, and only in roles subordinate to her and at her direction. This is true of any composer you might name. Of course you need a conductor, a sound designer, a recording engineer, and musicians to play the parts, and of course depending on who performs these roles, the final sound will differ to a degree. But how does this make Kanno unusual? What credit is she taking that other composers don't?
I'd like to point out again that I'm not attacking you in any way, I'm trying to engage in discussion and get at the truth of the matter. None of my questions are sarcastic. When I see something I know or believe to be false, I'm going to dispute it, but if you have information I don't, I'd like to hear it.
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DJMc
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« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2004, 18:29:18 »

Earl, I'm listening to all the Cowboy Bebop songs and their "inspirations" right now. Here are some of my thoughts:

>>Call Me Call Me/The Verve - "Bittersweet Symphony"

I forgot about that one! I noticed the similarity as well when I first heard CMCM. Actually, I think she changed it just enough to avoid a lawsuit, but it is very similar so I think it probably wasn't an accident. Funny story about Bittersweet Symphony, maybe you know this already. The string part is actually sampled from a Rolling Stones song. The Verve got permission from the Stones to sample it, but the Stones' producer sued them after it was released so the Verve never got to see any royalties for their biggest hit! I think this is the only Verve song that's not available on Rhapsody, and I'm sure the lawsuit is why. BTW I think the comparison between CMCM and Iris by the Goo Goo Dolls is way off base. They are both soft rock songs with an acoustic guitar, but the similarities end there.

>>Mushroom Hunting/DJ Food - "Let the Good Shine"

Yeah, this is the most striking similarity I've heard between a Kanno song and another song, but since DJ Food did a remix for CB, I imagine he gave Kanno permission. Otherwise, he probably would've ended up hearing it and would've sued her by now.

>>Yo Pumpkin Head/Lou Bega - "Mambo No. 5"

I admit I could only find the Perez Prada rendition of Mambo No. 5 to compare, but I think you're wrong about this one. Obviously the two songs are in the same style (latin jazz?) but I don't hear any similarity in the melody or harmony.

>>Ask DNA/Beck - "Devil's Haircut"

I really don't know what you're talking about here. They sound nothing alike to me. Are you sure you're not thinking of a different song for one of them? I should mention that the keyboard riff sounds very familiar to me, and it's similar to the one in "Shine On Me" by the Wondermints (although that song was released after Ask DNA). I thought it sounded familiar when I first heard "Shine On Me" as well, and I wish I knew where it was from originally if it's not original with "Ask DNA".

OH MY GOD... I just realized something! There's another Wondermints song called "Listen" from the same album as "Shine On Me", Mind If We Make Love To You, that sounds like a ripoff off "Nowhere and Everywhere" from Song To Fly! I thought it was probably a coincidence, but now that I've heard "Ask DNA" again... could the Wondermints be intentionally ripping off Yoko Kanno? Someone needs to get those songs and listen to them so they know what I'm talking about! As a funny aside, the Wondermints also have a song called "On the Run" on that album, but it's obviously not a ripoff of either the Kanno or Pink Floyd song.

>>Bad Dog, No Biscuit/Tom Waits - "New Orleans Instrumental"

I couldn't find a song called "New Orleans Instrumental" by Tom Waits. There's definitely not a song by that name on Rain Dogs. After doing some research, I think you must be talking about "Midtown" (track 11). I'm not sure if I agree with you about "Bad Dog, No Biscuit" being a ripoff. It sounds like it could be inspired by any New Orleans jazz song.

>>Pot City/Badalamenti - "Dub Driving"

I strongly disagree on this one too. "Pot City" could be inspired by any dub song, and I'm sure that even if it's not a ripoff of a particular song, there are plenty of dub songs that sound more like "Pot City" than "Dub Driving" does.

>>Cosmic Dare/Sugababes - "Overload"

I absolutely agree with you on this, but did you realize that "Overload" was released a mere 29 days before "Cosmic Dare" was? That's some quick work!

I agree with you on every other comparison to Cowboy Bebop songs you mentioned, they're too similar to be coincidence. I have to check out all the other ones now. Oh, one more question, where is Maaya Sakamoto's "Noon Snow" from? Is that a translation of one her song titles? I thought I had every song Maaya had ever recorded, but maybe not.
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